I've been thinking about the cost structure and here's what I've come up with so far.

The TMS accounts will have three levels: bronze, silver, and gold.

- Bronze is free.

- Silver will be $2.99, $7.99, $12.99, or $19.99 for one, three, six, or twelve months of access (respectively). This equals $2.99, $2.66, $2.17, or $1.67 per month.

- Gold will be $7.99, $20.99, $34.99, or $49.99 for one, three, six, or twelve months of access (respectively). The equals $7.99, $7.00, $5.83, or $4.17 per month.

The upgraded accounts will give you additional features throughout the site (including games that may be developed in the future).

In regards to Global Triumph:

- A bronze account will let you join and play one world, but your country will be removed after one month. This can be considered a trial, though users will be able to rejoin as a new country on the same or a different world, if they'd like. Ads may also appear within the game.

- A silver account can join one world at a time and can join alliances, discussion groups, etc.

- A gold account can join multiple worlds at a time and can create alliances, discussion groups, etc.

There are still plenty of details to think about, but that's what I'm thinking thus far.

Guess I'm gone when this goes live.

Me too

I could definitely see myself going for a 12-month silver membership. Gold is way outta my price range, and I like being able to focus on only one world at a time [/tng]

I would leave if I have to pay to play.

not all of us can pay

Well, I did my best at coming up with fair rates.

To add a bit of context, silver membership would be less than a McDonald's Happy Meal for an entire month of play. For the longer subscriptions, I think it's cheaper than a 7-11 Slurpee.

If I could make enough income on advertising, I wouldn't charge for the game at all. But, I don't have a budget to promote it, so won't have the audience to make that work for a long time.

In the end, I have to find some way of TMS being profitable or I'm just flushing my money and time down the toilet. For example, I just purchased a new server with more power to run multiple worlds. It's an investment at this point, but it would be a wasted one if I did it just so a few dozen people could play my game for free.

If someone has a better solution, I'm all ears!

Couldn't come up with a response, I was too busy clicking an ad.

perhaps a trial account and then a one time payment?

trial accounts are the one month accounts.



i'm with gopher. silver would be the way to go for me. i'm really not interested in multiple world conquests, but the drawback is that i would end up making a freeforum for an alliance instead of having it based here.

As I <a href="http://triumph.toomuchstupid.com/board/t_t86#m2">mentioned before</a>, I don't want anyone to click ads unless they're actually interested. It's not fair that those companies pay for people clicking just to make some random Web site owner a few bucks. In the long run, I'm sure Google's system would detect multiple clicks from the same sources and ignore them regardless.

That was just an example, not something set in stone. I'll probably end up allowing any paid account to create alliances, since they'll be much more integrated into the game.

i understand you're working on it. i'm going to try to get some people from another one of my forums to give the game a shot. they got all wrapped up in some evony-type thing at the same time that i started this game, and wanted to stick with the other game. hopefully they're bored and are interested in starting in a tiny gray patch for right now.

Ever hear of Infantry Online? It had a pretty sizable player base back when it was free to play then Sony bought it and decided to use it to turn a buck. Some people paid, but most left. Zones use to have thousands of players at a time suddenly had under one hundred on a good night. A lot of the subscribers quit as a result. After years of this Sony realized they had officially killed off the games fanbase and made the game free to play again, but it was too little too late. The game will probably never be what it was in it's glory days.

I'm not saying this isn't a fine game, but if it goes pay to play I have little doubt the same thing will happen. There's just too many free games out there to enjoy. Sure, some folks will stick around for a while, but not enough for a good game, much less multiple maps.

I'd look more into optional donations in return for some sort of in game perk that doesn't completely throw the balance off. Games that do that seem to have a lot better luck staying afloat.

sony has a excellent track record of completely screwing everyone over, i agree.

i was thinking about the optional donations thing as well. i play a game that features optional donations that can only be paid once per month and give extra benefits depending on how much the donation is.

people might be more willing to pay $5/mo if they get an extra 10k per day for it. $10 for 30k/day, $20 for 50k/day.

or maybe those figures are too high. i'm just spitballing.

I suggested something like that before, it got shot down to hell if I remember correctly.

I had mentioned before the structured accounts. I was thinking that the free basic account would be stripped. No shortcuts, no grouping, no "autopilot", just click on every unit, click on the action, click on the attack point, etc.

Start charging for the options to make it easier to play like shortcut keys etc. Maybe for extra maps as well. Or mini maps, Like 2 bucks per game. (mini game lasting upwards of a month)


I personally would pay for these options. I think more would if it sped up setting all the attacks that they have because they have gotten big and have a time investment in the game.

Oh, and put ads on basic account with maybe "intermissions" in it if it would help.

Yeah, microcharges might work.

how bout certain items within the game would cost actual money so that players with spare change could get them

like missles and nukes

I don't want to create the ability for players to buy advantages within the game, so no actual game advantages. (I also wanted to create a game that doesn't give an advantage to players who can sit and play all day, hence the once-a-day cycle.)

I think I may allow the free bronze account to play forever. It just won't have all the bells and whistles. For example, I'll keep the clone attack keyboard shortcut, but the others will be disabled.

That still leaves me with the problem of duplicate accounts. Having people pay to play would mostly eliminate it, but it'll always be a problem with free accounts. You guys wouldn't believe how often people do it. I honestly can't believe there are so many people who can't respect such a simple request.

reveal who they are!

I use to play Astro-Empire or something to that effect until they started sending me threats for using a shared IP. I had been logging in mostly with my phone since I was traveling a lot at the time. I guess mobiles use shared IPs. I wound quitting the game over it. Meanwhile people who actually cheat use proxy IPs and rarely get caught.

If you make a hard and fast rule like no shared IPs you wind up losing legit players, just because some D-bags have to ruin it for everyone.

I think the invisible hand of Johnny should strike at them now

Maybe you can offer like better management services for those who pay? Like, give free members the merge option, but like things like clone attack, you offer to those who pay for it. Also for like maybe give the paying people a mini-map and the ability to type in coordinates and immediately go to those coordinates.

Also think you're being a little pricey, There's a game called simcountry.com where you run your own country (literally your own country, from infrastructure to labor to populace to war) and they give you 3 months of free game time and then they make you pay for it, which I think is alot more cheaper then what you're planing to charge for. They even give out cash prizes too.

I think maybe for silver members, charge them maybe around $1.50 - 2.50 a month and for gold members charge them around $5? I mean, your typical MMO games are like $10 - $20 a month and those are alot more intricate then this game.

Another option could might be possible is that you're allowed to play one map only, and you could make a one time payment to be allowed to play another map. That way, members could basically "buy" the map/server from you to use as their own.

Maybe also for everyone, offer some kind of prize at the end of the map? Like bronze members will get 1 month of silver for free, silver get 1 month of gold, and gold get 1 month of not having to pay.

Maybe the Bronze accounts would only let you play on a small "demo"-sized map? Have a small-sized island (see: southeast island of Alpha, or one of the eastern islands of Golf) that give people a feel for the game but won't last for too long. Let them explore the large map as well so they can see what the big boys are up to.

Hmm that sounds intersting

allow avatars and sigs for subscribed members. I don't have good suggestions for subscription prices without knowing what you're paying for the server.

One possibility you could consider, if you need to bring others into the game, is to use a kind of invite system. You know, say we tell someone about the game and bring them in, and when they make an account they refer to the inviter's account, and the inviters account gets something like in-game money or whatnot. Or, do something like what Eve Online does, if you bring in someone that subsequently subscribes, you get a free month of subscription time. It helps increase your member base, which in turn lets you lower the individual subscription prices to something like 2 dollars a month or whatnot.

Another possibility, in combination with a lower subscription price and the bronze account mini-map suggestion, would be a kind of donation meter. you figure out the amount of money you'd need to justify opening another large map, and set up a donation meter showing how much people have donated. Once you hit the designated amount, the new map opens up for new subscribers to join, as well as anyone who donated. With the subscriptions itself, make it so that one subscribed account=access to one large map, then donating to open the new map also allows you to start a country to the new map.

So, a summary.

Free Account=access to small maps without, say, access to nukes, and with a lot of banners. If they are made and put in that they were referred to by a subscribed member (watching for obvious abuses, i.e. IP sharing, same email, etc.), the member gets $50k or something like that as a bonus. If the free account gets turned into a subscribed account, the referring member gets a free month of subscription time. Encourages bringing friends into the game, which is a plus for you, Johnny, and encourages subscribing and encouraging subscribing, more plusses, while still giving people the ability to play the basic game for free as a trial. also, give them access to a reduced forum area.

Small maps=no nukes, no alliances, banners, and instead of deleting the free accounts after 30 days, just have the maps only last around 30 days. After 30 days, reset the small maps. Adjust the number of small maps based on the number of free accounts; 1 map per 30 players or so. Purge the free accounts after 30 days of inactivity.

Subscribed members: $2-3/month (as a suggestion, once again i can't give a good one without knowing your costs and desired profit, etc.), gets access to play the large maps that lasts however long it takes. Allows a country on one map per subscribed account, however give subscribed members the option (through a subscriber-only section of the side, for example) to donate to the site to fund another large map (minimum donation $5, to prevent abuse). People who donate get access to the new map in addition to the one they already have a country on. Allow the option to delete countries to join the new map. Subscibers are also the only ones who get access to all the site, including map-specific forums for diplomacy/trolling, discussion forums, etc. Large maps only end when one alliance/country takes over the entire map, at which point the account(s) that win get a cool badge on their account that will show on the forum as well as in their user information; e-peen material, basically. Maybe some other tangible benefits as well for victory, like an extra $10k the next time they start a country on a map, etc.

In the meantime, if money is becoming an issue, I would strongly advise opening a route for donations now so you aren't too far in the red before the game is finished. I know it looks scary being in the red for your investment, but that's just what the barrier to entry is; if you jack up your prices right away to get into the green, you're going to drive people away. Everyone is a fickle little bastard on the internet, its a fact of life. If you keep the prices low and convince others to do the advertisement work for you to draw in members, you will be more likely to make back your investment and will make it back quicker by having possibly twice as many people paying small amounts all at once. Just think, half a dozen people chucking $15/month only nets you like $90/month, having 40+ people paying $3/month nets you at least $120/month, with the potential to draw in a lot more people that will also pay the $3/month. If the game is developed further, which it doubtlessly will be i'm sure, the more likely people will be wanting to pay to play it.

I agree.
That reminds me of a game called Batalian Wars. (However you spell batalian)
If you donate, you get extra features in the game, not to where it is a major unfare advantage, but to where it helps you out.

But honestly, if I would have to pay I would resign.

Or if I could play for one month and then have to quit, I would resign.

~Hath Said The King~

Thats fucking retarded, who the hell would want to play if you had to pay. This game isn't good enough to pay for

i will admit i like this more then evony. but as for payment options, im not sure how i do it. maintenance may not cheap for this. johnny would know.

i am against the idea of pay, but i dont know all the technical stuff.

Needs to stream line his operating costs. Mines at 30 bucks a month

Ah, well, clearly you've outlined a perfect apples to apples comparison.

And what of the time I spend developing the game? I suppose I should just consider that good will towards my fellow man, so that I can be rewarded with such kind words as "that's fucking retarded" and "this game isn't good enough to pay for."

I would like TMS to become something other than time and money I put into something that never becomes anything. I want players, but in the end it has to amount to some purpose for the company. If I made enough on advertising, the game could be free. But, you have to have money in order to advertise to get the players to make money on advertising.

I'll likely keep the bronze account free without time limits, but with far fewer gameplay options. I also run word-of-mouth incentive programs whenever I can, so I'll definitely be doing to same here.

gotta do what you gotta do. this game has potential, even though i may not be able to pay. but i know when i can i will comeback.

Perhaps, you give maybe a small monetary incentive for the gold/silver accounts? Like, offer them x amount of real money if they win. Maybe #1 silver/gold account that has highest score (such as in land size/money/army/etc) gets like lets say $10. Which would result in profit for you if you have like 5 or more silver/gold. Like, the silver/gold members can enter contests that only they can enter.

There is a problem with this... It is gambling and many states won't allow it and you would have to be 18 to play... Odds are you wouldn't get caught. If Johnny's luck is like mine though, they would be on him like stink on shit.

As much as people hate them, I think in this situation Micro-transactions may be they way to go. Keep the game free.

Want to start a country on a different world? $5 please.
Want to be able to use keyboard shortcuts? $5 please.
Want to create a new alliance? $5
Want to rename your country? $5
Create a custom color for your country? $5

You could even go so far as to ask for some kind of payment before allowing players to build advanced weaponry like Bombs or Battleships.

I think going the way of RuneScape would also work in this situation. Offer free servers but create Subscription servers with more options available such as alliances, treaties, bombs, battleships, maybe even offer a larger world on paying servers.

I think you have a great thing going here. I'm a big time Diplomacy fan in the RL, but as an average game can take around 6 hours non-stop to play I don't find many opportunities to play. I definitely think you should be paid for your work, but if you cut out free-to-play options I think you'll lose a lot of your word of mouth advertising base. I think there are several options that could be discussed that would earn the necessary funds while still offering a free to play option.

Good Luck,
Brady Groves

Ah well, you have stumbled onto the Marxist attitude of the liberals and the immature that believes that business exist only to provide product and employee paychecks. (and all the other benefits). R&D, and all of that should be taken as a loss. They don't care if the boss makes a profit, just as long as they get what they want (at a price they are willing to pay). Only the bottom feeders should make anything. Don't forget that all that coding you are doing should be open source as well. To hell with intellectual property. We live in a capitalistic society. (These same people want "free" health care. [paid for by businesses])

This thought of donations is great, but why should I donate my hard earned money so some cheap bastard can play for free?

Johnny made an investment of not only time, but of money as well. If he is unable to turn a profit, and recoup his investment, then why on earth dick with this? So he has a game to play? In the real world, people like to get paid for their time.

Those of you who feel that this game isn't worth paying for, quit. Johnny has said a couple of times that he would most likely make the basic account free and you would only have to pay for the upgrades. You can't ask for more than that.

On a side note, Clone attack shouldn't be in the basic toolbox.

agreed

So let me just make sure I understand you here. You're basically saying that nonprofitable hobbies are a waste of time and nobody should work without the promise of a tangible reward?

Just out of curiosity, are you also one of those people who thinks avarice is a virtue?

I just want to make sure I understand you correctly because I find it really ironic that you label the counter viewpoint "immature".

I only stated that Johnny's venture was not one of hobby but a financial investment. Hobbies are just what they are, hobbies. No one expects to make money from a hobby even though sometimes it happens. I guess a person can work without tangible reward, but that would be a waste. Even personal gratification for a job well done is tangible. Money is not the only tangible reward. A person runs a marathon for exercise and for the satisfaction of the race itself. Johnny brought up the money thing to start with. To expect a person (who never stated this to be free for ever) to do something for nothing is part of what is wrong with this country. If I choose to survey a church for free then that is my choice, but for a church(esk) group to call me up and expect me to work for free is bull. This is what everyone is expecting of Johnny. He is in the process of working on this game and has yet to announce when the charges would go into effect.

Avarice (extreme greed for riches)? (I had to look it up) Is it a virtue? NO. Is the desire to better one's self and to prosper financially a character flaw, I think not. This is not a matter of greed but of business.

Actually I didn't label the counter viewpoint immature, I included the immature with the counter viewpoint. It has been my experience that immature people tend to have idealistic beliefs that tend to not play out in the real world. (Anarchy is a prime example of immature thinking. It cannot exist in the real world. Someone stronger, smarter, etc will impose their rules on the weaker, thus the end of anarchy.)

Regardless of which definition of 'tangible' you choose to use to interpret my statement, my point remains. Capitalism promotes greed, encourages an expectation of reward for anything we do, and replaces real values like altruism and generosity with selfishness. As far as I'm concerned it's immature to think the only way society can function is if people are driven by their zeal for their own individual prosperity. After all a society is by definition a group not an individual. For a group to function people need to have a team mentality not a me mentality. Its fairly elementary logic; the sort of thing we teach kids in preschool, then apparently throw out the window as soon as we become adults. Sickening really.

Capitalism also promotes drive, ingenuity, competition, and many other <i>good</i> things. No system is perfect, because humans aren't perfect. Capitalism, though, works well in the real world. Also, a human being can thrive in capitalism and still remain altruistic and generous, because capitalism doesn't dictate the way a person lives his/her life.

As for me personally, my ultimate goal would be for TMS to be successful enough that I could work on its games as my regular job, rather than work a job and just do this when I can find time. So, if that's ever going to happen, it has to be profitable.

First, thank you!

Second, are you referring to the clone attack shortcut key? I was thinking the game would be too cumbersome without it, but that's probably the case when a player becomes fairly large. So, I'm guessing your thought is that it would encourage them to upgrade their account, correct?

I think I'm going to add an auto-attack or repeating-attack option, where the attack you set automatically gets set again for the following day. If that's the case, my thought was to include that only for upgraded accounts, while the bronze account still has to click and set attacks each day. With that in mind, do you still feel the clone attack shortcut key shouldn't be available to bronze accounts?

I suppose capitalism promotes drive, ingenuity, and competition in the same way communism promotes unity, cooperation, and equality. In theory it all sounds great. In practice however...

But I do agree that the problem is never the system, but rather the people that make up the system.

communism promotes those things on paper, and dictates that those things are happening in real life even when they aren't.

capitalism allows people to make of themselves anything they want. bill gates started at the bottom and now is rich beyond his wildest dreams because people bought computers with Windows.

First off... How on earth did I start this direction of the thread?

The reality is that we all are socialists to some degree. I am aware of only one village in china that actually is communist as laid out by Marx. Human nature has made it almost impossible for communism to come to fruition. The step where the powerful who get the ball rolling have to release their power usually doesn't happen.

Until society is able to provide for ALL of an individuals wants and needs, (or the human desires are squelched) capitalism will continue to flourish. As it stands in THIS world, me and my family is MY responsibility and no one else is going to provide for us. I don't want to be Bill Gates, but I would love to not have to get paid for my work.

Give everyone a Home and a replicator (Star Trek) and then we can talk work for work's sake.

Johnny, I think the entire command should be removed from the bronze account. It makes the game too easy to play as you grow. People would be more willing to pay for upgrades if it is very time consuming to continue to play once they are big and have a time investment into their country. This this should be added to the Silver account then the "autopilot" function would be gold.

I wouldn't call it gambling. You pay to be a silver/gold member. It's a contest, lets say. You earn lets say points, which are the prizes for the contests, which are really worth nothing outside here, which you can exchange for lets say another month of free subscription or maybe exchange the points for money.

Isn't capitalism working today because of the limitations that are put in place? Pure capitalism seems to fail. Unless you ignore the sweatshops, less than $1 wages a day, etc. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, unless you have faith in trickle-down economics.

A mix of capitalism and socialism works these days. Otherwise, atleast in the U.S., the elderly would be the largest demographic of those in poverty again.

socalism has and never will work, those who lived in socialist nations will say you are crazy